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-TITLE-Interagency
Working Group Staff Stakeholder Workshop: Transcript, Day 2
-TEXT-
UNITED
STATES DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
*******************************
In
the Matter of:
INTERAGENCY
WORKING GROUP
STAFF
STAKEHOLDER WORKSHOP
*******************************
Tuesday,
February
27, 1996
U.S.
Dept of Energy
14th
& Indiana Ave. SW
Room
107, Administration Building
Washington,
DC
The above-entitled matter came on for hearing, pursuant to notice at 8:00 a.m.
PANEL
MEMBERS:
PANEL
1:
Claud
Bailey
Harry
Holloway
Gary
Ellis
Susan
Rose
Gary
L. Chadwick
Sandra
Reid
Jackie
Kittrell
Caroline
Szetela
Thomas
Ensign
Sandra
Marlow
PANEL
MEMBERS:
Panel
2:
Eva
Plaza
Paul
Yanowitch
Rick
Hornung
Jonathan
Samet
Thomas
Bell
Dan
Brown
Phil
Harrison
Banny
deBrum
Dennis
Roper
Timothy
Benally
Ray
Koonuk
Manual
Pino
David
Harding
List of Participants, Day 2
Last First Affiliation
1
Albert TomNorth Slope Borough, Alaska
2
Allingham Fred National Association of Radiation
Survivors
3
Anders Roger Department of Energy
4
Azim Lori Department of Energy
5
Bailey Claud Department of Defense
6
Baker Doris Cincinnati
7
Ballot Joseph Manillaq Association
8
Barker Holly Assistant to the Ambassador Designate of the Marshall
Islands
9
Barrs Neil Department of Energy
10
Bell Thomas Department of Energy
11
Benally, Sr. TimothyOffice of Navajo Uranium Workers
12
Bibeau Harold Oregon Prisoner Experiment Victims
13
Bires William Alliance of Atomic Veterans
14
Boyce Fred L. Fernald "Science" Club
15
Broudy PatNational Association of Atomic Veterans
16
Brown DanAir Force
17
Brown E. Cooper National Committee for Radiation Victims
18
Byrd Acie National Alliance of Atomic Veterans
19
Campos-Doris Conference Facilitator, Health & Human Services
Infantino
20
Chadwick Gary L. Food and Drug Administration
21
CollierKathy Veterans Administration
22
Conn Steve Alaska Public Interest Research Group
23
Connolly KimNorth Slope Borough (Alaska)
24
DashenoLt. Gov. Pueblo Indians
Walter
25
De Vesty BobVeterans Administration
26
DeBrum Banny Ambassador Designate of the Marshall Islands
27
EgilmanDavid Center for Atomic Radiation Studies (CARS)
28
ElliottAnne Department of Energy
29
Ellis Gary Department of Health and Human Services
30
EnglandDonVeterans Administration
31
EnglishCharles Department of Defense
32
Ensign Thomas Citizen Soldier
33
Falk Henry Center for Environmental Health
34
Farber Stuart Public Health Sciences
35
Ferguson Earl NASA
36
Fernando Mora
37
Fisher, Jr. Thomas RADLAW
38
Gage Mike
39
Galson Steven Department of Energy
40
Gates James Task Force (Atomic Veterans)
41
Glynn PatDepartment of Justice
42
Gordon Janet Citizens Call
43
GourleyKaroline Department of Energy
44
Grahflis Lincoln National Association of Radiation Survivors
45
Guarisco Anthony Alliance of Atomic Veterans
46
Hamm Rev. Ron Vanderbilt Experiment Survivors
47
Hanfling Phyllis Department of Energy
48
HardingDavid North Slope Borough, Alaska
49
Harrison Phil Navajo Uranium Radiation
Victims Committee
50
HetzlerGreg Senate Government Affairs Committee
51
Holloway Harry NASA
52
Honicker Clifford American Environmental Health Studies
53
HopkinsAnnWashington, DC
54
HornungRick Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
55
Hughes David Department of Energy
56
JemmottAdriane Cummins & Brown
57
JohnsonCynthia
58
Keller Robert Congressional Staff
59
KilleenKevin
60
King Linda
61
Kittrell Jackie American Environmental Health Studies
Project
62
Kline Chris Senate Government Affairs Committee
63
Koonuk, Sr. Mayor Point Hope, Alaska
Ray
64
Levinson Rachel White House Office of Science &
Technology Policy
65
Lewis Peter Uniontown, PA
66
Lewis Carol Uniontown, PA
67
Macris Eric Office of Management and Budget
68
Marlow Sandra Center for Atomic Radiation Studies (CARS)
69
Mather Susan Department of Veterans Affairs
70
McCarthy Joan National Association
of Atomic Veterans
71
McCoy David Executive Court Reporters
72
McLeod DotI.T.S.O.R.
73
McLeod KimDepartment of Energy
74
MelamedElly Department of Energy
75
Miller Richard Oil Chemical and Atomic Workers Union
76
Mills Greg GAO
77
Mousso Gerald Rochester Radiation Victims/Survivors Association
78
MuellerMary
79
Nardella Joseph Survivors of Medical Radiation
Experiments
80
Nelson Gloria Cincinnati Families of Radiation Victims Organizations
81
Norris PatNational Institute of Health
82
O'TooleTara Department of Energy
83
Otchin Neil Veterans Administration
84
PereiraJohn Central Intelligence Agency
85
Pierre Joan Ma Defense Nuclear Agency
86
Pino Manual Pueblo of Laguna
87
Plaza EvaDepartment of Justice
88
Purley Dorothy Pueblo at Paquate
89
Ramierez Louise Hiroshima/Nagasaki Peace Committee
90
Reid Sandra Oak Ridge Health Liaison
91
Ronan Mary National Archives and Records Administration
92
Roper Dennis North Slope Borough, Alaska
93
Rosen Oscar National Association of Atomic Veterans
94
Rudner Bob
95
SchiavoLisa Department of Energy
96
SchultePaul National Institute for Occupational Safety
and Health
97
Sea Geoffrey Atomic Reclamation and Conversion
Project
98
Seligman Paul Department of Energy
99
Smith TomNational Association for Atomic Veterans
100SollarsDarcelle
Hanford Downwinders
101Soper
Gordon Department of Defense
102StanleyMarilyn
I.T.S.O.R.
103Steinbach
John Hiroshima/Nagasaki Peace Committee
104Stocklosa
Janis NASA
105Szeterla
Carolyn University of Tennessee
106Taylor
Jane Department of Energy
107Tucker
Kitty Health & Energy Institute
108Van
Destey Lane Defense Nuclear Agency
109WacondaAl
Pueblo Laguna
110Weaver
Brenda Hanford Downwinders
111Webb
Arthur AMA Systems
B.
112White
Robert Veterans Administration
113Wilkerson
Phil American Legion
114Winter
Celia Veterans Administration
115WoehrleMrs.
McLean, VA
Nelson
116Woner
Rebecca
117WoodsonWilla
Concerned Relatives of Cancer Study Patients
Nell
118Yacovissi
Robert
119Yanowitch
Paul Department of Justice
120Zielinski
BobDepartment of Energy
Press
1
Barton Paul Gannett News Service
2
DoggettTomDow Jones
3
Weiner Rebecca States News Service
.....
MR.
LEWIS: My name is Pete Lewis, and I am from Uniontown, Pennsylvania,
and I am also a radiation victim, biomedical victim. I am from Germany.
That is where I was born. The experiments started, in Germany. They
did some biomedical experiments. One of them is so gross, I will
not even say what it is. And it spilled over, into the United States.
It continued, here. Battle Creek, Michigan. From there, Walter
Reed Army Medical Center.
At Walter Reed Army Medical Center, the AFIP building, that is the pathology building, in the basement, those experiments went on, in there. Here are the pictures, right here. These pictures, these photographs, were taken, in the basement. Here is what we have. Oh. Boy Scouts. I am in these pictures. Here are some of them. Here is a machine, it is called a, ooh! I don't have it. What happened to it?
Anyway, here is a part of it. It should be in there, Carol. It is called a counting machine. Of course, to count the machine, they have got to put something in you, to count, am I right? I mean, if you have got a bank, there are no pennies in it, you don't count it. You have got to put pennies in it, to count it. So they had other machines, there. These are radiation machines. Round cylinders. One of them was a round cylinder. It had a radiation symbol it. They stick you in it. Your head is sticking out of it. They shoot the radiation through you. They can stick you in a counter, see how much the body absorbs. I do believe, though, that was the first CAT scan. Experimental.
It is wrong. But, kids, you don't experiment on kids. You don't even experiment with kids, in an experimental machine. You don't even know if the machine is going to work right. And you definitely don't shoot radiation through a child. This government -- here is the counter -- this government bombed Hiroshima. Nagasaki. My goodness! Those are the two biggest test labs I have ever seen! Why do we need any more test labs on radiation? We know what radiation does. Can't get no records. That is a shame. Too bad, huh? Look what I got. A record. This is a record book, that was kept in the bottom of the pathology record. Let me read it. "Walter Reed Army Institute of Research. Division of Nuclear Medicine."
Now, we have a start. We have a record. I asked, "Sir, ma'am, here is a record, a picture of it. Can we dig it up? My name is on it. Unfortunately, my name was put into a number. In other words, the changed the names and numbers, and stuck that on here. Let's dig up these records, okay? I would appreciate it."
After this, I went into another building, about a year later. It is called the Isolation Ward. That was an experience. I had an entire ward, a little bit bigger than this, to myself. Well, that was fun, for a kid. The first day in there, I took off. You know how kids are. I was about, maybe, ten or twelve. Went next door. A bunch of soldiers, over there, playing chess. Well, I got in there, and I played chess with a guy. He did not pay much mind to me. I beat him. So, of course, all the other soldiers, they start teasing him about it, and it got serious. A crowd came around. I played him, a second game. Well, he started beating me, but I was saved, by a nurse. She came. She saw me. She said, "Hey, you ain't allowed in here!" Away I went, back to the ward, by myself, again. This time, they kept a guard, a 24-hour guard, there, so I could not take off.
I was not allowed to get any soda pop. I could not have any other foods. They fed me my foods. They took my stool, my urine. Boy, did they really poke holes in me! Both ankles, both sides. Knees, both sides. All over my hips, the back of my head. I believe they are called bone biopsies. I get visions, they have got this sharp thing. You stick it in, like a corkscrew, and take your flesh, your skin, your bone, and ffft! Got it! I don't know how they do it, but that is just the way I figure. But I have got a lot of them, all over me. I even got stuff, left in my arm, that they forgot to take out, or whatever it is. Now, I don't, I am not angry, at today's government, for what yesterday's government did.
Let's get this clear, right now. Today's government did not do these atrocities. Not at all. That was yesterday's government. However, I am frustrated, because today's government will not release the records. That is bad. I mean, they did not do it. What have they got to lose? Yesterday's government did it. They are the ones who should hang their head in shame. For the record, we do have some people, here, from the government, that, we hope they help. They want to help. I think they will help. So, my question is, will you please get my records? The one, I was in that laboratory. Oh, in the ward that I was in? They would knock me out, and take me into a laboratory, and I was totally out. This took place, for about six days. I have no idea what they did to me, in that laboratory, except, when I would come out, I had Band-aids, all over me. So I guess, Bengay, like that, or whoever made those Band-aids.
But, anyway, I am asking, can we get the records, please? I will give you the dates. I will make it easy for you, okay? I will make it very easy. And then I am done.
MS. MELAMED: I think, in response, it is certainly the intention of all the agencies to support the effort. Insofar as it is possible for us to get records, and to help people, or to help them find records --
MR. LEWIS: All right.
MS. MELAMED: -- and we welcome any information --
MR. LEWIS: Okay.
MS. MELAMED: -- that people can provide to us.
MR. LEWIS: The radiation, whatever it was? I was perfectly healthy. There was nothing wrong with me. Maybe I looked a little crazy. Okay. That was, let's see, that would have been September 20, 1958. Is anybody going to write that down, please? Okay. There should be records, on that day. One week later, on a Thursday, that is when me and my sister went in. That is when we went in to the machine that had the radiation symbol on it. Boy, do I wish she was here, today, to testify with me! She has got three feet of dirt, on her, now, in Lebanon, Tennessee. She died, about four years ago. The doctor found like a crust, I guess, over her entire brain. Cancer. And he said, "You had that, 20, 25 years." So it is easy to figure out where it came from. The other, the other date, okay. That was my.
COL. BAILEY: Sir? If you could provide me a copy of that, before we leave, or?
MR. LEWIS: Sure.
MS. MELAMED: We will copy it. Bob Zielinski, are you in the room? This is someone, also, from the Department of Energy, who, we will make sure. We will copy --
MR. LEWIS: Okay.
MS. MELAMED: -- this material. We will make sure he gets it, and --
MR. LEWIS: I will give you my entire statement, on this.
MS. MELAMED: -- he will be working with you --
MR. LEWIS: All right. Thank you.
MS. MELAMED: -- and we will, as well, to help you with that.
MR. LEWIS: Okay.
MS. MELAMED: We have a place, a specific --
MR. LEWIS: Okay.
MS. MELAMED: -- place set up, for that.
MR. LEWIS: You are from the National Archives? When this mess is over, I am going to donate these to you, okay? Let the people, in the year 2000 and after, see this, and they will, "Hey, we don't mess with stuff, again!" Okay? Thank you.
MS. MELAMED: Thank you. (Applause.)
MS. McLEOD: Madam Moderator, Peter testified before the Advisory Committee, in Knoxville. No one from the Department of Energy was there, to try to get help for him. This angers me.
MS. MELAMED: Well, certainly, we can understand that, and, while I don't know the history of this, we really do have a system in place. Imperfect, sometimes. And I have to say that, sometimes, the Department of Energy does not have access to all records. But, certainly, we will --
MS. McLEOD: No.
MS. MELAMED: -- do our best to figure out if these are our records, or where those --
MS. McLEOD: Right.
MS. MELAMED: -- records would be.
MS. McLEOD: What angered me, was that, the Advisory Committee provided no one to tell him how to go about getting his records, or anything, at all. No support, emotional.
MS. AZIM: Do you want to call the next person, please, Dot?