Nota: Invece di pagare i danni, la NATO indebita il paese. Il tempo dirà se la RFYu è caduta dalla padella nella brace o meno.

Last week, Solidaire interviewed two Otpor activists, the anti-Milosevic student movement.  Today, it is Zivadin Jovanovic, Yugoslav Foreign Affairs Minister, and also one of the most important leaders in Milosevic's SPS party.  This party, having held onto its share of the electorate, remains the most important political party in the country.  In these troubled days, hundreds of international journalists have sought to interview a socialist leader.  The honor went to Solidaire's special correspondent.
MICHEL COLLON

Tuesday, October 11, 11:30 a.m.  I entered the grand oval office of Zivadin Jovanovic, Minister of Foreign Affairs.  It is probably one of the last times that he will be found here.  Some people say that it's "the end of a reign."  "An eclips before a likely return," answer those who emphasize the fact that with 40% of the electorate (a fixed number), the SPS (Milosevic's socialist party) remains the most important party in the country, while the present DOS coalition is quite fragile:  18 parties whose programs contradict one another, and whose electoral promises will be impossible to fulfil.  Jovanovic, who is quite jovial and quick to smile, also has a number of questions to ask himself.  The impassioned interview lasted three hours.

How are you?

Jovanovic:  I'm surviving!  In spite of a very unpleasant visit paid to my this morning by a troika from the DOS, who came to try to force me to step down.  Claiming to be "from President Kostunica," they are going everywhere putting pressure on people who have legal mandates in order to force them to leave.  I responded that Mr. Kostunica had just sworn allegiance to the Constitution and, after that, I called to their attention that it is not the president but the Prime Minister who names ministers.  In public, they claim to respect the law and the normal functioning of institutions, but in reality, they are doing everything in their power to destroy them!  They are trying to create chaos.

The DOS declares that it is "the workers who are taking control of factories."

Jovanovic:  But when this country practiced "self-management of companies by workers," the said that it was a form of Communist dictatorship.  In reality, today, it is Zoran Djindjic, the executive head of DOS headquarters and I might add its true master (Editor's note:  Djindjic is a politician from the right who is extremely unpopular for having supported Nato), who is in a hurry to seize everything.  They are stampeding like hungry jackals.  These politicians are not the people.  They want to seize power of everything right away in order to start selling off the country. One could see on television the Customs Chief chased out of his office and replaced, under the threat of arms by a certain "Captain Dragan," who is the leader of a Serbian militia that was active during the war in Croatia.

This was a scene that shook public opinion.

Jovanovic:  The man whom Djindjic placed as Customs Chief had been in charge of customs before.  He was fired because he had a police record.  Now, he comes back with armed supporters and takes his old job back!  Is this a "spontaneous movement that arose from the masses?"  People were so infuriated that the DOS realized that it was an illegal act and that they would have to nominate a new director.  On the basis of what law?  It is not within their power to do so because the nomination of a new director is within the jurisdiction the current government, which is still in office. Little by little, the people are going to understand.  Even the DOS.  There are honest people who disapprove.  But they lost, and without any influence.  President Kostunica whose reputation is impeccable, ought to be concerned about this.  In Parliament, he took an oath of loyalty to the Constitution.  These people are scoffing at it now.

But for the moment, most of the population is very happy about the "change."

Jovanovic:  They will understand what took place when they find themselves without a job, when they see the stores filled with Western products that they will be impossible for them to buy, when they submit to a system where they can be arbitrarily deprived of jobs, and when they have to pay enormous sums of money for education and health care.  That's when they'll understand. I know that our stores are not very impressive.  There are few German, French or English products.  But most of the people can buy whatever they need, even modern domestic appliances.  It will be a rude awakening.  People cannot dream very long about miraculous solutions.

The West promises to provide Yugoslavia with financial aid.

Jovanovic:  A little money will come from Europe, and the DOS will present it as "aid from friendly countries."  In reality, it will be a down payment on the purchase of our entire country.  For every dollar received, we will be obliged to pay back ten!

In fact, dollars have already found their way into Yugoslavia.

Jovanovic:  Yes, the United States publicly acknowledged having spent $77.2 million dollars in order to help the opposition overturn the Yugoslav government.  And on September 25, the U.S. Congress voted a new credit of $105 million dollars.

Have you lodged a protest with the UN against this interference in elections?

Jovanovic:  Of course.  This destabilization of our country was organized first in Budapest, with American offices established in Sofia, Skoplje and elsewhere, and composed of CIA agents.  The Vienna Accords forbid establishing centers in one country that are hostile to another.  Look at what's happening today.  The American ambassador to Budapest, Montgomery, is coming to Yugoslavia to pay a visit to his subordinates at the DOS! But the United States and Great Britain, who control the UN, have denied all evidence of this. Other countries understand what's happening here, but we can't even get a debate.

The United States has spent considerable sums of money for the DOS electoral campaign.

Jovanovic:  Yes.  And how would they react if this sort of thing was done in the United States?  It reminds me of a joke that's told here:  a villager sees a priest eating a huge serving of roast beef in the middle of a religious fast.  "But you told us that fasting was a one of God's commandments!" says the villager.  The priest replies:  "You're supposed to obey my instructions, but you're not supposed to act the way I do!"

In short, "do as I say, not as I do."

Jovanovic:  (Laughing) Yes!  That's exactly the case with the United States!  What they permit themselves to do, they forbid to others.  Whenever they speak of "democracy," it's merely a slogan they advance in order to dominate the world.  Another example:  they want to impose an International War Crimes tribunal in order to put us on trial.  But they themselves refuse to accept a universal war crimes tribunal, which would put them on trial for all of the war crimes they committed against various sovereign states.  They know all too well that they would be convicted for what they have done in Panama, Haiti and elsewhere! In 1995, in the Assembly General of the United Nations, they voted against a resolution which forbade intervention in the domestic affairs, particularly electoral, of other countries.  This resolution was voted in despite American opposition, so they ought to follow the rules of the democratic majority!  "Two weights, two measures," that's the key to American-style "democracy."

Is Yugoslavia lone targeted, or does this announce other offensives by the United States and Nato?

Jovanovic:  It is not merely the problem of one country in a strategic region.  They are going to make a terrific effort because if Yugoslav resistance lasted much longer, it would have become a dangerous example.  We were in the process of acquiring growing support from the Third World.

Is Russia the next step?

Jovanovic:  If so much energy has been concentrated against Yugoslavia, then it is not merely to gratify the immediate interests of the United States and Nato in our country.  In order to understand, it is necessary to take into consideration their global aspirations.  Besides certain regions which have a vital importance in and of themselves, because of their significant natural resources, whatever Nato and the United States are doing is always a function of their global interests. First of all, they want to destroy any will to independence and resistance to their domination of the entire world.  Secondly, they want to send the message that "No country at all is allowed to invoke principles; it must only respect the way the United States sees things.  Thirdly, Nato is thus drawing closer to the borders of Russia and China.  Washington is working toward breaking them up while planting the seeds of separatism and manipulating Islamic fundamentalism.  On the one hand, they are deceiving the Muslims in making them believe that they are their friends.

All of this while they are massacring people in Irak and Palestine.

Jovanovic:  Exactly!  And on the other hand, they are looking for a way to control mineral and energy resources in the same way they want to control the new markets which are opening up to the east of our country:  the Caucasus, the Middle East...  Having established their control over western Europe, the United States now wants to control all the governments of Eurasia.  That is the decisive global factor involved. In having resisted for ten years, we have given other countries time.  Some countries have been awakened to their role with respect to the situation, but it has not been enough.  Without a doubt (there was a melancholy note in his voice), the burden Yugoslavia had to carry was too heavy.  We have received some support, but not enough, most notably from countries that we were counting on.

Are you thinking of Russia?

Jovanovic:  (He did not reply, but merely nodded his head).  Nothing is forever.  Including the present situation in Yugoslavia.  I am certain that, just as certain people who voted for the DOS are going to regret it, certain European countries will regret not having supported Yugoslavia more and they have come to that realization too late. (Smiling again)  An old Serbian song says:  "The bear is dancing on your uncle's doorstep.  And now, he's coming to your house!"  In other words:  You haven't budged, but you will regret it.  Everybody has underestimated these events and they have not seen the risk that they have taken by not reacting.

And from your point of view, do you think you've made some mistakes?

Jovanovic:  Yes.  I don't want to evade any of our responsibilities.  We did not realistically evaluate the domestic and international situations.  We did not take into consideration the negative factors.

For example?

Jovanovic:  Domesticly, we did not realistically consider the sentiments of the people.  We should have paid closer attention to the effects of the deprivations which the people were subjected to after ten years of sanctions.  The people resisted aggression; they resisted sanctions, but their living conditions were really degraded beyond any reasonable point.  And with the war on top of it all! Secondly, after the aggression, we put a great deal of effort into reconstructing the country. Schools, hospitals, roads, bridges...  This demanded a lot of capital and we had to levy an assessment on salaries and pensions.  The reconstruction was important for the future of the country, but it did not directly improve the quality of life.  We should have been more realistic as far as investments were concerned, and adopted further measures to improving the living condition of the people. Thirdly, we did not succeed in controlling commerce.  We gave too much latitude to greedy people who stockpiled merchandise, like oil and sugar, which resulted in prices increases before the market was resupplied.  People profited from the situation to stockpile and speculate.  They sometimes sold items at two or three times their cost!  Imagine the fortunes they accumulated! There is a cement factory in my region called Paracim.  It's a very important product because there was a lot of reconstruction to do after the bombardment.  During an election rally, a woman came up to me:  "Mr. Minister, why do you let these people charge 13 deutschemarks for a sack of cement when it only costs 3.5 deutschemarks when it leaves the factory?"  The director of the factory was standing right next to me, so I turned to him, and he said:  "I am only responsible for the production.  I can't control commerce."  I talked about this situation with my colleagues from the economics department.  But too late.

Many have criticized your government as well as your party for the fact that while the great majority of people were living under conditions of extreme difficulty, fantastic fortunes were also being made.  Some people lived lives of luxury and privilege.

Jovanovic:  Some people profited from their position in order to illegally and immorally enrich themselves.  Now we are suffering the consequences.  But they represent a minority.  The great majority of our socialists are honest people who struggle for social justice, education and health-care for all.

Why didn't you fight more vigorously against this phenomenon?  Because what you are describing is not a recent development.

Jovanovic:  The forces at the heart of my party were not inclined to undertake this struggle.  But now, we are going to have to get rid of these profiteers.  Efficiently and pitilessly.

At all levels?

Jovanovic: At all levels.

Many people think that Milosevic would have done better to recognize Kostunica's victory immediately.

Jovanovic:  I don't know if Kostunica had 51%, 50% of the vote or somewhat less, and now I don't care.  Anyway one looks at it, it is clear that he had a 10% lead over Milosevic and that he was going to win.  On the other hand, there is a legal process that must be respected.  They should have verified that he really got 50% or if a second round was necessary.

In fact, isn't the DOS victory the result of a number of factors?

Jovanovic:  Absolutely.  The principal-for which we are to blame, and I myself am to blame-is that we severely misjudged the real situation.  Even though I had achieved good results with my constituency in Pomoravije, winning three districts out of six.  Maybe four after verification.

In fact, the SPS is holding on to its electorate.

Jovanovic:  Yes, but this is what is new.  Washington has succeeded in making the opposition DOS credible.  Faced with this great international campaign, financed by millions of dollars, we can be satisfied to have succeeded in conserving the SPS's force.  Too bad that we did not succeed in enlarging our base.  That will be our task in the future.

Translated by Milo Yelesiyevich

Michel Collon